Curse

ShaJiexi · Jul 15, 2011, 07:01 PM // 19:01

While I do not RP, and so probably could care less about plot details (it's a game), I thought this first round of WoC could probably have been scripted a bit better.

I know the Devs love playing homage to pop culture/other awesome things, and enjoy lampshading the tropes of the video game/fantasy genre. It's what made EotN so much more fun- rather than taking itself too seriously, we could laugh at the expected genre conventions. The Norn and Asura and Charr became enjoyable foes/allies, and the dialogue made me chuckle more than once.

Now, after three campaigns and an expansion plus more interim content, we are feeling guilty about killing gangsters which we remorselessly slaughtered just 7 years ago (game time)? These guys are actually evil gangsters who terrorize civilians (rape, pilliage, extort, murder, etc). Kournan soldiers were conscripted and fed into our meat grinder. White Mantle were brainwashed. We helped kill Shining Blade before that, and took out huge numbers of Forgotten (good guys) as a "test". We've committed genocide against minotaurs in Maguuma and other non-human races that are just as intelligent as we are. The dude (Xan Hei)? was right. Why the heck do we care about killing gangsters?

The Ministry are going to end up the bad guys, we get it. But just make the Minister power hungry and wanting to usurp the divine right of the emperor or something. But getting a conscience transplant halfway through the last quest? The Ministry lackeys are dead right. Yeah, the Ministry thinks anything bad should be killed. But that's what we think too, and how videogames usually work. EotN struck a nice balance between the necessary amount of plot to give context to gameplay, and the ability to recognize the limitations and conventions of the genre and make fun of them while exploiting them in an enjoyable way. First round of WoC is a teaser, but it struck the wrong note (the repetitiveness of the quests aside)- I read the mission dialogue and was so annoyed at the railroading of my character into a gangster-pitying conscience-ridden amnesiac (I know noone plays Factions except for CM/FFF, but it wasn't that long ago) that the rest of WoC is basically just farming for rewards until it's truly unbearable and because I have to finish this part for the next parts.

And when the Ministry turns into the Nazis, let's not be pitying gangsters, please. There are plenty of other factions in Factions more deserving of our pity.

FoxBat · Jul 15, 2011, 07:50 PM // 19:50

It is completely out of character for GW and an MMO, but I find it refreshing that we are getting something other than black-and-white morality for once. "Pity" for a fairly evil group is a big part of that; choosing yet another pure and innocent group would dilute the theme. It's telling that you want to paint the ministry as Nazis, when they've chosen to exterminate a group that has a little more than just genetic heritage "wrong" with them.

Ideally we'd have our choice how to handle the matter, but the handful of live team members don't have the resources to really follow through on a branching story. The alternative would not be to touch the grey areas at all, and I'd much rather deal with the railroading than that.

The Cold Jade · Jul 15, 2011, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaJiexi

While I do not RP, and so probably could care less about plot details (it's a game), I thought this first round of WoC could probably have been scripted a bit better.

then why did you write the rest?

ShaJiexi · Jul 15, 2011, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cold Jade

then why did you write the rest?

Because this was so incredibly bad it managed to detract from my enjoyment of the gameplay itself.

SpyderArachnid · Jul 15, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

I think Cold Jade has a point. You contradict yourself by saying you could care less about the plot details, then go on a rant about the plot details.

Safer Saviour · Jul 15, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaJiexi

First round of WoC is a teaser, but it struck the wrong note (the repetitiveness of the quests aside)- I read the mission dialogue and was so annoyed at the railroading of my character into a gangster-pitying conscience-ridden amnesiac (I know noone plays Factions except for CM/FFF, but it wasn't that long ago) that the rest of WoC is basically just farming for rewards until it's truly unbearable and because I have to finish this part for the next parts.

I've always found it incredibly ironic that so many of GW's cut-scenes cry out for heroes and saviours when, quite frankly, we're horrible monsters. We never display remorse, regret or resignation over the fact we're killing thousands for whatever cause suits us at any given moment. Actually, we never express emotion at all. We just kill. Personally I like stories where there's a bit of moral ambiguity and... general substance. 'Mindless Monster Hero' bores me.

So, yeah, I was really annoyed at being rail-roaded into the role of a genocidal sociopath for most of the game. =P

Retro8bitje · Jul 15, 2011, 09:05 PM // 21:05

They should give us a choice with path we should we take, good, bad or neutral... Well when i see my Warrior from GW as an assasin you kill your targets for the rewards. And now she is bitching about ow but we can't kill all of them! i say bullshit i vanquishd cantha for the rewards. I don't want that my warrior gets all emo over killing a few gangsters.

ShaJiexi · Jul 15, 2011, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyderArachnid

I think Cold Jade has a point. You contradict yourself by saying you could care less about the plot details, then go on a rant about the plot details.

That is an intro saying "Usually I don't like to bring stuff like this up since Roleplaying isn't the most relevant factor to my gaming experience". It is not saying I don't care about plot at all, otherwise, I wouldn't notice/bother reading text/all MMOs would be generic whatevers, and graphics would be totally irrelevant as well. I prefer PvP, and then gameplay/balance is all that matters, but when I do PvE, I do notice and some small things like that do matter. Not much, and when done well they can make things fun (or more fun than they would be otherwise). When done poorly, they can detract quite a bit. Given the quests were already a bit monotonous, adding in the "let's turn our genocidal hero into a hypocrite" was just painful to watch. If done well, I can see it. But here, the thing that makes us turn into passionate, love-thine-enemy heroes are street gangs ravaging a population, committing genocide against the civilians, and this turns us against a group of people just like us who are actually fighting on behalf of the people? At least wait for them to actually go Nazi-like before starting to turn against them. They're still saving people from bad guys, right now, whom we agree are bad guys that need to die (or did last time we were in town).
We can decide otherwise as plot demands, but don't make the hypocrisy and plot wizardry so blatant as to cause a plot dissonance even PvP-oriented people can detect.

I love Fable, Baldur's Gate, DnD, and all the nuances that come with them. I enjoy books that explore those grey areas. But they do it well. What I object to here is not the presence of a conscience, but the manner and context of how it was done. Jarring, awkward, and making an already poor chain of quests into something barely bearable to farm for a weapon. This was not substance, this was just utterly preposterous bovine fecal matter.

StormDragonZ · Jul 15, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

"I will do anything in my power to stop the greatest evil... even if that means becoming the greatest evil itself." Go play the first Diablo game to understand that quote.

I'm getting the idea that the Ministry is slowly going to become what they're trying to stop and prevent. Ultimately, this is going to indicate outside forces are making what Cantha is today. Remember how they said Cantha would close their borders? The only true way to stop the growth of evil is to contain it, not kill it.

Something like that.

shinta_himura · Jul 15, 2011, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I completely agree with what you're saying ShaJiexi. The only reason why I could see that we're now putting up with the sudden morality is because the player character found out that the Jade Manifest contains the full roster of the entire gang, or something.

They are now under the ridiculous assumption that the Ministry wants to wipe everyone out, despite the fact that the ministry has deliberately been focusing on only the most important targets in their dealings with both gangs (Am Fah: Jeijou, because he knew how to make a Chalice and was very dangerous to let live. Jade: The one guy who had the Manifest, so they could identify and find the Brotherhood leader.)

Yes, good little PC, the Jade and Am Fah are people too, and *gasp* maybe the Afflicted are sentient! But the citizens of Cantha are people, aren't they? And they have been the largest victims of gang activity and of the Afflicted. The entire nation has been neglected by the empire and everyone of importance except YOU and a select few others have turned a blind eye to the plight of Cantha's people.

If you don't kill the Afflicted then they will continue to kill innocents and turn more people. If you don't kill Am Fah plague spreaders then they will continue to spread the PLAGUE. If you don't send a message to the Jade Brotherhood then they will continue their "way of life" of harassing citizens, KILLING MORE PEOPLE for worse reasons, etc.

Where was all of this non-sense when we were downing hundreds if not thousands of brain-washed zealots in Kryta?

By the way, while you're busy helping Cantha, the Am Fah are actively trying to find and KILL YOU.

They are NOT GOOD PEOPLE and if someone doesn't take proactive measures, they will continue walking all over Cantha, and the Empire will continue not giving a shit.

I am glad for the non black/white writing and for the larger focus on the PCs importance. The game play has been bland but story wise this is THOUSANDS OF LEAGUES better than sitting through an asuran trial or having to look at a golem copy-paste Invader Zimm quotes. But... you went from being subtle about the morality to throwing it full force into our face in the last 5 minutes of part 1.

Spiritz · Jul 15, 2011, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Omg - firstly if i hated most of the storyline for woc etc i wouldnt be playing nor whining.
Secondly - stop being an idiot , you dont rp but somehow the woc plot has you disliking it.
Gw isnt set in modern times and therefore we cant impose our values on it - im sure as hell somewhere in most ppls family tree is someone who killed another in some way .Did we in the dark ages give a toss who we killed , did anyone in history actually stop killin ppl because its not right ?

Hang on tho - it could be said that killing the woc foes isnt fine but its OK to kill dwarves/plants/djinns/ ( infact just add every type of foe in gw here ) - im sure i read somewhere that basically all forms of life in gw is sentient in some way.
Its a game - if you dont like the plots you dont have to read them - there i said it.. its a game

Harashima Maki · Jul 15, 2011, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Code:

did anyone in history actually stop killin ppl because its not right ?

Pretty sure they did, just because they lived in the past doesn't mean everyone was a bunch of mindless thugs, people were probabaly just as intelligent as we are now, they just didn't have access to as much knowledge, if you get what I'm trying to say... If they did just go round killing then there'd be no one left.

Safer Saviour · Jul 15, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

We can decide otherwise as plot demands, but don't make the hypocrisy and plot wizardry so blatant as to cause a plot dissonance even PvP-oriented people can detect.

Read my last post. There's always been a blatant hypocrisy in Guild Wars. All the 'hero' and 'saviour' bull contradicts the gameplay and our own PC's emotionless response to everything.

Quote:

I love Fable, Baldur's Gate, DnD, and all the nuances that come with them. I enjoy books that explore those grey areas. But they do it well. What I object to here is not the presence of a conscience, but the manner and context of how it was done. Jarring, awkward, and making an already poor chain of quests into something barely bearable to farm for a weapon. This was not substance, this was just utterly preposterous bovine fecal matter.

There's no grey area in Fable. It's a system of duality: good and evil. Personally, I like it when there's no universal good and evil and players get to decide their characters' moral codes without being guided by the game into doing 'right' and 'wrong. I don't expect something as complex as Oz, The Wire, Deadwood or Boardwalk Empire. In fact, as this is Guild Wars, I don't expect Harry Potter, Iron Man or Dragonball Z. The writing throughout much of Guild Wars is as endearing to me as that of Twilight, but I do like that there are people in the department trying to change that.

Sure, it messes with continuity, but it's fresher and more interesting than the mindless monster route. I'd certainly like to see the Ministry as more than the 'Evil Empire' and as a group of somewhat sympathetic individuals.

Reformed · Jul 15, 2011, 10:19 PM // 22:19

If they insist on making us fight the gangs I demand more Big Trouble in Little China references.

ACWhammy · Jul 15, 2011, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I'm in complete agreement with the OP here.

When I came across this in the storyline, i was like "What?"

Do you know how many of these am fah and jade brotherhood dropped down from the sky when I was trying to vanquish these locations? They would have slit my throat in a dark alley along with my companions and heroes hundreds of times without a thought. So now my character feels bad for killing them? Come now...

I'm really hoping that the Ministry don't turn out to be the "bad guys." At the end of the story, they left it open-ended a bit. I'd much rather kill every Am Fah and Jade Brotherhood on the face of Cantha even if it does give me a "bad rep" with some of the citizens. Sometimes somebody has to do something that everyone else is too scared to do.

So yeah, I'm with the Ministry on this one. Strap me up and give me one of those Shredder suits!

AC

Prestige · Jul 15, 2011, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Is this a new look-a-like of the White Mantle VS. Shinning Blade ?
The Story is the same thing, and it's really pro-grind.
Didn't ANET specificly said GW1 & GW2 is a against-grinding game ?
Seriously, It's a : Go to point A,Kill Group B,Go to point C for reward,Go to point D to repeat quest.

Seriously, it's really annoying. Such a great concept (Winds of Changes)
to make it .. well ... that!

TheRakeman · Jul 15, 2011, 10:56 PM // 22:56

It is a bit of an assumption that the Ministry of Purity is going to be the enemy in the next 2 chapters. It is very likely, of course, but Anet could just be throwing us off from something more surprising.

It would be extremely unlikely, but I suppose possible.

Bandwagon · Jul 16, 2011, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Hey guys instead of dissecting stupid sh!t that has nothing to do with his argument and using it for fuel to drive your ad hominem attacks, why don't you actually read his post?

Anyway, time for the nitty-gritty of my post.

I agree completely, why the hell should the player character feel any sort of pity or remorse at this point when the gangs in general are against the well being of the country. Hell, wasn't there a quest where you had to thwart the Am Fah /Jade Brotherhood from assassinating the emperor? Why would you feel pity for them? Why should Cantha people feel pity for them (ie: can you blame the Ministry for hating them so much?)? Those gangs knew what they were getting into. It feels like such a stretch for someone to clean up and kill dangerous, violent, dissenting enemies of the emperor then feel pity for them because "OMG THEY HAZ FAMILIES LETS QUESTION OUR LOYALTIES".

There are a myriad of things I absolutely despised mechanics and implementation-wise regarding WoC (what can I say, it is a b!tch to please me, but then again WiK was cool in my opinion), but I found this snag to be one of the most thought provokingly stupid plot devices I have ever witnessed.

Again, why the hell should we feel pity for people who after all efforts continue to hamper (through deadly force) the attempts by the emperor to bring stability to his country? If your supposed to feel sorry for them, at least give them the moral high ground and make us do something truly questionable (akin to breaking the terms of engagement).

Your not supposed to feel sympathy for the bad guys when they eat babies and trample old ladies flower gardens for "Teh Lulz".

Sorry 17 bone crushingly boring quests of "Go to A, kill B, turn in, repeat" gets to me after a while.

Apok · Jul 16, 2011, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Someone from the GW2G forum noted that not all gang members are intentionally evil and out to get everyone just because. Most gang members join up purely for protection and shelter that the government can't provide for them. Gangs are not that close-knit and have contain people that would rather live a simple suburban life than kill innocent people all the time.

The PC has slaughtered them in the past, but not at the vast quantity that the Ministry of Purity has asked them to. Most of the time, it was to kill a boss or lieutenant that was telling everyone to create such heinous crimes. When the PC heard Reisen's first words upon meeting him, they started to really question the Purity's intentions and how the Jade Brotherhood reacted to them.

Of course, it's not the best writing. Having my guy say that he doesn't want useless bloodshed then carefully killing all of them in his way was a real "F U" to writing in general. If the PC had said those words, they would've tried to find a way to get past all of them without killing them.

Shadowmoon · Jul 16, 2011, 12:37 AM // 00:37

nightfall was the last good story IMO, everything has frankly been getting worse and worse.GWEN was really weak because once you kill a god what really is left.Guild wars beyond story lines have been horrible, they serve singular goals while damning continuity. Plus while playing these they are ton of nagging questions.
War in Kryta: Why are the Mursaat present? Why do Mursaat even need the White Mantle anymore with both the gate sealed and the Foundry destroyed? They are a intelligent race, I want to understand why they still are involved when they get nothing but trouble out of it.
Wind of Change: Why are their still afflicted around with Shiro gone? Why are they organized? Why do we cleanse all they afflicted but ignore the Shiro'ken? Why are they still Shiro'ken? These are suppose to be bound souls under the service of Shiro, with him gone why are they still around and able to organize attacks.